Bug 160735

(In reply to grishka@zaclys.net from comment #0)
> We should be able to easily manage styles: either directly from the sidebar
> (with direct access options),
Context menu of each style in sidebar has "Edit Style" option. If you take into account hierarchy of style it's for example easy to change font of all heading styles, just by change font of style "Heading". I don't understand, what enancement is needed here. Could you please explain? => NEEDINFO


> or in the style modification window (in the
> first organizer/manager tab, we should be able to choose the style we want
> to modify).
I think, this is already possible (see above). Please explain the problem => NEEDINFO

> 
> This development would make it possible to avoid the recurring bug for
> years, but never corrected, which prevents the updating of a style from the
> selection.
Please add number of that bug report. => NEEDINFO

(In reply to Dieter from comment #1)

Thank you for your answer.

> Context menu of each style in sidebar has "Edit Style" option. If you take
> into account hierarchy of style it's for example easy to change font of all
> heading styles, just by change font of style "Heading". I don't understand,
> what enancement is needed here. Could you please explain? => NEEDINFO


I regularly use the hierarchy to modify titles or to format my summary. However, this is not a request of this type. On the contrary, I like to configure (and I'm not the only one) individual and non-hierarchical styles (or on body text level). For example: a quotation paragraph, an exergue paragraph, a “Nota bene” paragraph, etc.

What I want is not to have to open and close this style modification window multiple times to program my formatting: my proposal is to gain flexibility and formatting time.

> > or in the style modification window (in the first organizer/manager tab, we should be able to choose the style we want to modify).
> I think, this is already possible (see above). Please explain the problem =>
> NEEDINFO

You write that "we should be able to choose the style we want" in the first manager tab of the "paragraph style" window. You specify that you "think" it is already possible. But that is indeed my request :  this is precisely not possible. We should be able to access the "NAME" text bloc, from which a list would allow us to choose the name of the style that we want to modify and an option should be able to allow us to directly add a style at this level.


> > This development would make it possible to avoid the recurring bug for years, but never corrected, which prevents the updating of a style from the selection.
> Please add number of that bug report. => NEEDINFO

Sorry, https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76084

(This is not really a bug, but rather an unintuitive behavior. When you want to modify a document, whose styles have already programmed, activating the "update selected style" option does not always work (this requires us to go through the style modification window).

(In reply to grishka@zaclys.net from comment #2)
> I like to configure (and I'm not the only one) individual and  
> styles (or on body text level). For example: a quotation paragraph, an exergue
> paragraph, a “Nota bene” paragraph, etc.
There is no such thing as non-hierarchical styles, or rather if you neglect the hierarchy and put every style on the top level it has a consequence. The typical hierarchy is Default > Text Body | Quotation, and changing the font, for example, from Serif to Sans on Default affects all (unchanged) styles below.

The proposed generic style management dialog might sound as a solution but violates the KISS principle and contradicts the actual power of style hierarchy.

Plus, you shouldn't have to modify styles a lot. Even with a couple of modifications it's something that could be done once and saved as template.

I'm against adding a new dialog.

(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #3)

Thank you for this dialogue, Heiko.

> There is no such thing as non-hierarchical styles, or rather if you neglect
> the hierarchy and put every style on the top level it has a consequence. The
> typical hierarchy is Default > Text Body | Quotation, and changing the font,
> for example, from Serif to Sans on Default affects all (unchanged) styles
> below.

My proposal does not at all call into question the hierarchy of styles. When I create a new style, it always respects the hierarchical structure of Libreoffice. 
The style editing dialog box also contains everything you need to create a style while respecting the hierarchy: you can already choose the inheritance style. I only want to add entries: "create a new style" or "modify an existing style" from this window.

> 
> The proposed generic style management dialog might sound as a solution but
> violates the KISS principle and contradicts the actual power of style
> hierarchy.

Today, the configuration of the style is unrelated to the creation of the new style. Precisely, my proposal simplifies the approach: creating a new style from the dialog box allows you to centralize style management. My approach is more KISS, than this way of forcing us to go back and forth between the FOUR style menus (menu tab, right click, properties in sidebar, styles in sidebar...) and the style management dialog (in which you can do everything... except simply create a new style!).

I note that it is already possible to open a new window to modify the parent style. It would be a contradiction to KISS logic if we follow you!

> 
> Plus, you shouldn't have to modify styles a lot. Even with a couple of
> modifications it's something that could be done once and saved as template.

I believe that a minimum of courtesy is in order: who are you to estimate the use that users make of the software? ;)

I use models: that is not the question. Besides, I like to modify them over time.

But both for personal and professional matters, I have many and varied projects. I adapt my hierarchy of styles to these projects (sometimes once, so no need for a model). So even if it doesn't suit you, I change my styles a lot (And no, I'm not confusing Writer with DTP, I use Scribus for this type of project)..

Modifying the different existing styles and creating two or three new styles with clear names for me, in one go from the dialog box, would simply save us time.

> 
> I'm against adding a new dialog.

The proposal is not a new dialog box, it is an enrichment of the existing dialog box. The idea is to fully manage the styles from this single box which already exists.

(In reply to grishka@zaclys.net from comment #4)
> ...
> 
> The proposal is not a new dialog box, it is an enrichment of the existing
> dialog box. The idea is to fully manage the styles from this single box
> which already exists.

So, this could best be handled as an SB framework enhancement to the Stylist deck to include filter against style name(s)/categories. And implement an additional style list view mode, maybe name it 'Picked' that would show based on a checkbox against the filter.

The Stylist already provide editing, and 'New Style from Selection' and 'Update Selected Style' as well as 'Load Styles from Template' (the "model" @grishka refers to).

In short the existing Stylist SB deck can support the request, just needs the by-name (and category?) style filtering and additional content panel/list view work to implement the suggested work flow.

+1

I understand the request as an additional action "Save as New" next to Reset, Apply..., which does not overwrites the currently edited style but creates a new children of it.

The number of action buttons is confusing right now and adding more not advisable. So the button could be rather "New" next to the Name field in the organizer tab. It would make the name editable and set the "Inherited from" to the current style. To make Apply working I think New creates the style immediately. And if the name cannot be edited I think a simple dialog does the trick too.

There is still no simple description of the proposed *workflow* - like "I want to open this, there do this and that, ..." with *following* (inline?) explanation what is the exact difference compared to the existing options (like "this step is the proposed change; currently, to do this, we need A, B, C...").

My *confused* understanding of the proposal is *roughly* that OP wants to expand the *style properties* dialog, possibly its Organizer tab, to add options to change the currently selected style (including creation of a new style without leaving the dialog). Or maybe adding a panel *to this dialog* (similar to the left tree panel in the Options dialog), which could show the same styles tree as the F11 sidebar window, with management functions available in that added panel. But again, my understanding might be totally off.

Anyway, even when we discuss options that help with management of styles (which we should promote, of course), we must not forget, that the work with style organizer (creation, hierarchy management, editing of style properties, etc.) should never be considered the task taking much of the time spent on a document. Any given bug report may sound as if the problems it tries to solve take too much effort, but UX must realize that the real benefit could be more like "optimizing 0.01% of the total effort into 0.009%".

Mike Kaganski, I hope to provide more clarity here!

First of all, we all agree that formatting is not the main task in word processing software. This is a task I typically tackle at the end of the workflow before my final proofread. But I find that the formatting process is not optimal, that it wastes my time.

Today, to edit a style,
1. I go to the side panel
2. I right-click to open the context menu.
3. I then choose “new” or “edit a style”.
4. The window takes 2 to 3 seconds to open.
5. I make my various modifications.
6. I apply or click OK. The window closes.

And to change another style, I have to redo exactly the same process which contains a right click, a left click and several seconds to open the style management window: it is this process that I find laborious.

 Heiko Tietze said:
> So the button could be rather "New" next to the Name field in the organizer tab. It would make the name editable and set the "Inherited from" to the current style.

This is exactly what I dreamed of! :)

A “New” option as well as a drop-down list offering existing styles would allow us to manage the modification of our styles without leaving the window:

1. I open the styles editing window (with a keyboard shortcut!)
2. I choose the style to modify or I click on “create” (or “new”)
3. I make my modifications
4. I click on “apply”

Then, I continue my stylization of the other styles without leaving this window. This saves several steps, many seconds and many right clicks!

Ultimately, the proposal can be summarized as transforming the "edit style" window for each style into a general and unique window: "edit styleS".

A dialog with a control (or two) to choose what it is about is BAD. We *almost* don't use this kind of UI - and the only place that I can recall that does this is a UX disaster: Options->Load/Save->General->Default File Format and ODF Settings. There, the "Document type" dropdown controls what the next "Always save as" control manages. And users really struggle to understand that selecting "Spreadsheets (Calc)" there, they can edit the settings for spreadsheets. Please PLEASE no more such UI.

But in principle, I don't oppose some *other* kind of a change, which would turn the dialog into a better UI for managing styles, e.g. with a tree of styles that clearly show which of the styles is selected at the moment, or something no less clear and giving context.

(In reply to grishka@zaclys.net from comment #9)
> This is exactly what I dreamed of! :)
Probably not. My idea extends the editing of _one_ style with the creation of a children. I see no way to edit, for example, Text Body and to create a new style under Heading.

I wonder if such thing is worth the trouble. Some implementation effort, lowering for usability, documentation, etc.